View source for Talk:Racial Stealth Modifier

i too find it hard to believe tua deserves a 2, but i don't have one so can't say for sure. but seeing hie/elf/drw/hlf/kzin are 1 i'd be surprised to find tua with a better stealth mod. also, i think dsd stealth should be 1 in the chart. dsd will seem much better anyway from small size and higher dex. i think the size and dex mods, as mentioned in the note at bottom of pg, get overlooked often and assigned to the racial stealth mod--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 15:58, 19 September 2013 (EDT)

: Having ran a tua BCI, I had an opportunity to see how it performed with and without nightcloak. It never failed a stab. Ever. Nils I got were same as anyone else, but it it didn't nil, it connected and did damage. That being said I am unsure if this was a combination of dex+int (doubtful, tua have low dex, compared to other roguetypes) or maybe a combo of those with a solid stealth mod. Regardless, nightcloak or no, they ARE stealthy. -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 16:10, 19 September 2013 (EDT)

:: How useful is it to try and separate out the basic stealth modifier from dex, size and whatever else? I presume that the main use for this chart is to help people decide on what race to go for a rogue-type character. In which case, the bottom line you want to know is how well your character does with sneaky type skills at the end of the day... right? --[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 07:57, 20 September 2013 (EDT)

::: As Mekrith already wrote a long time ago, and I have no reason to doubt him, positive modifier is difficult to determine. Where a smaller race might have better slip chances, a larger one might have a better stealth modifier for hero stabbing. I think an overall score should be appropriate for this table, which again can be a subjective thing, and definitely might differ between hero and lord tiers. I'm no expert on stealth and will not interfere with general consensus. My point above was simply tua related, they do not fail stabs. -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 15:21, 20 September 2013 (EDT)

[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 20:16, 22 December 2011 (CST): can anyone confirm if gob/kob have good stealth?  I'm way too lazy to test right now.

Zaav commented how races with either stealth or hide have +1 and both have +2 - does anyone know is this is true? I suppose it does make sense. -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 02:54, 17 December 2011 (CST)

: As sensible as it might be to make a relationship to visible racials and invisible modifiers, there's no evidence one exists.  Moreover, races such as tua, hie and imp clearly break this "rule". --[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 14:10, 17 December 2011 (CST)

is Tua stealth really equal to the best in the game, i.e, hlf, kzn and dsd? if true, aside from not making a lot of sense thematically, that's just one more bonus for an already over-twink race, in my opinion.--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 06:13, 14 December 2011 (CST)

: Tua stealth is very good, which is part of why they are popular blds (high stealth, medium size, cen stats).  Yeah the race is totally unbalanced, but that's nothing new.  It's centaur plus at half tnl.--[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 02:14, 15 December 2011 (CST)

:: Tua are indeed very good. Actually, they used to have 1250 tnl, their TNL was increased in the perception that they're too good. Also, they do have half the tnl of cen, but require a remort. so it's effectively more like between 1/2 and 2/3rd the tnl. Still really great value for their TNL. - [[User:Belag|Belag]] 09:42, 15 December 2011 (EST)

::: I'm extremely dubious about Tua having such a good stealth modifier outside of using Nightcloak when BCI. I have never seen anything which would suggest it would be much different from liz or hum.--[[User:Shadowtop|Shadowtop]] 23:30, 18 September 2013 (EDT)

For various races, as far as I know. Of course, this can be inaccurate:

* Drow have good stealth. (HELP STEALTH mentions this, though help files are known to be inaccurate).
* I believe Elf also have good stealth, though I'm not very sure about this.
* Orc have roughly human stealth (I seem to remember from some place that they have a 2% penalty)
* Grf have human stealth - as you'd expect from a large race.
* Tua have good stealth - but i'm skeptical that it is as good as kzn/hlf.

[[User:Belag|Belag]] 13:46, 14 December 2011 (CST)

i'm pretty sure also that both Elf and Drow have good stealth. i wouldn't be surprised if Orc have no stealth bonus but i doubt it's negative. Grf i've always heard have good stealth, as so many people have always had Grf rogues. however since most large races (esp. those with a racial dam mod) have a negative stealth mod, perhaps just having human (i.e, no stealth mod good or bad) is relatively "good" for Grf. Tua i really doubt is equal to kzn/hlf/dsd, but i don't have one to test.--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 13:57, 14 December 2011 (CST)

: Drow are mentioned in racial stealth help file as being stealthy. Are we sure they have a 0? -- [[User:WinterRose|WinterRose]] 03:12, 15 December 2011 (CST)

[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 18:13, 14 December 2011 (CST)
I'm trying to bring this page in line with what I know and my reasoning is below.   I was giving GRF the benefit of the doubt but I agree it's probable they don't have a stealth mod (they seem to have no invisible mods at all, remarkably.)  Orc have 5% failure rate on backstab, of that I am certain.     Drow/elf/hie it's contingent on them to prove they have a modifier, their performance at lord doesn't seem remarkable compared to human.    Tua have a very high modifier, as Lolthar demonstrated to me to my satisfaction.   Demonseed I would hope are the best possible stealth race (+2 mod and small size with high dex/int) but nobody really plays them at lord, I'm just assuming.

i can see dsd would be hard to test since, as you mention (aside from not being played much at lord) they are small and have huge dex (and slightly above average int and dam mod), which could be confused with a stealth bonus. tua is just a complete mystery to me - why do they have any positive stealth mod, not to mention such an unusually large one? on top of their other quite considerable positives and low tnl, it's pretty out-of-balance i think. as to your comments below regarding "stealth and other modifiers" i'd vote we include a paragraph similar to that on the page, so people get a better understanding as i suspect when looking at this page they are interested in both the actual racial stealth mod and the overall "rogue goodliness" of a given race. grf for example i can see doing well overall, despite having no positive racial stealth mod per se, due to the other factors - int, dex, racial dam mod.--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 18:54, 14 December 2011 (CST)

having discussed with a lord grf rog and asn it seems their racial stealth mod is either equal to hum or a bit better - the word is: they are "catlike" and thus stealthy, despite the large size, failing roughly 1 of 15 stabs.--[[User:3nki|3nki]] 21:33, 14 December 2011 (CST)

== Distinguishing between stealth and other modifiers which affect it ==

Performance in rogue skills is not exclusively determined by the stealth modifier.   Intelligence, dexterity and size also affect rogue skills to varying degrees but these are separate from the hidden natural stealth modifier, which is what I expect this page to track (I may be wrong).   If this page wants to track overall stealth performance (especially at lord) then it should be rewritten to say so, and size, dex, int, damage mod and stealth mod should all be considered in a compound rating which basically translates to "rogue goodliness."

Most races do not have a stealth modifier.   The stealth modifier is most plainly obvious when using backstab, as when it is rolled you get the message "it sees you coming from a mile away" and your backstab fails completely.  From this you can clearly see some things - trolls have a -5% modifier, dragons are -20%.   However, it doesn't measure positive stealth modifier in any way, and these positive stealth modifiers are extremely rare... most races which are considered "stealthy" are just neutral with above average intelligence/dex, which is sufficient to succeed on backstab all the time.  

Other skills fail for other reasons - most importantly, slip and disengage are strongly affected by size and groupsize, as your ability to disappear in a crowd is considered extremely important there.   "Nils" on assassinate and backstab occur at a flat rate regardless of race or class.   From this we can see differences in orc and troll stealth performance, despite them having the same negative modifier - orcs have more dex, and also are medium instead of large, so they stab slightly better and slip significantly better.

All that said, I'm pretty sure that drow, elf, and high elf all have no stealth modifier.  I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not.   Surprise attack might be a better way to test this.

--[[User:Mekrith|Mekrith]] 17:48, 14 December 2011 (CST)